Skrevet av Emne: "Crimes against humanity"  (Lest 2782 ganger)

Utlogget Amatør1

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"Crimes against humanity"
« på: August 25, 2012, 12:21:44 pm »
Følgende sitat er jo interessant i lys av nettet som er iferd med å snøre seg sammen rundt "The Team":

"It is absolutely a fair argument to say that individuals who knowingly funded dishonest efforts to confuse the public about the climate change threat are participating in what might reasonably be defined as crimes against humanity."

Hvem sa dette? Hvor og når? Hvis det var en perifer figur som sa dette for lenge siden på et ukjent sted, la gå. Men dette er et ordrett sitat fra Michel Mann på  RealClimate for bare et par dager siden! RealClimate: Language Intelligence – Lessons on persuasion from Jesus, Shakespeare, Lincoln, and Lady Gaga: A Review

Fra kommentarene:

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Mike Roddy says:   
20 Aug 2012 at 5:42 PM

As for Nuremburg, The Hague is better, since Nazi associations are not effective. Koch, Boyce, and Tillerson will be brought in on wheelchairs in about 20 years, their heads bobbing around crazily, as they barely understand the charges.

The most relevant part should be the penalty: confiscation of all of their assets. That will get their attention. This could be a popular movement if we phrase it that way. Who cares if they go to prison? Taking their criminally obtained money will hurt them more, and actually do some good.

[Response: Enough already with this "criminality" argument. It is not a crime to express your opinion, no matter how stupid or dishonest it may be. Nor is it a crime (perhaps unfortunately) to spend millions of dollars on misinformation campaigns. This sort of talk simply helps convince others that those on the side of taking the climate change risk seriously are crazy ideologues. Comments of this sort tend to make me agree with them. Enough.--eric]

[Response: Eric, I think you do a disservice to Mike here. It is absolutely a fair argument to say that individuals who knowingly funded dishonest efforts to confuse the public about the climate change threat are participating in what might reasonably be defined as crimes against humanity. The tobacco CEOs were criminally liable for doing precisely that in the case of cigarettes and lung cancer. Arguably, what the funders of organized climate change denial have done might in the long run cost even more lives. Eric, you are certainly welcome to disagree with Mike, but it is wrong of you to attack him for expressing these views. They are quite similar to what James Hansen has said publically. I take it you disagree w/ Hansen? Have you called him out similarly? --Mike]



Mann har definitivt mistet hodet, og framstår nettopp som en "crazy ideologue" slik Eric Steig faktisk beskriver.

Spørsmålet er om Mann allikevel skal ansees som tilregnelig og måles på egne utsagn, slik han selv synes å insistere? I såfall kan det ligge an til et større oppgjør enn han kan overskue.
It is easier to lie to someone than to convince them, that they have been lied to

Utlogget Amatør1

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Sv: "Crimes against humanity"
« Svar #1 på: August 25, 2012, 12:54:52 pm »
Jeg lurer på om Eric Steig har begynt å være hvordan vinden blåser, og begynner forsiktig å distansere seg fra Mann og Hansen. Det er i så fall å balansere på slakk line. Fra tråden nevnt i forrige innlegg:

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Tenney Naumer says:   
21 Aug 2012 at 11:12 PM

@ Eric, re: #54, your response: “I’m in disagreement that you believe that the solution is totalitarianism.–eric

OK, Eric, that must be the most bizarre leap of irrationality that I have seen in a very long time, or rather, that type of leap is what goes on on Faux News.

I am in agreement with James Hansen, and I rather doubt he believes in totalitarianism.

[Response: Tenney, as noted below, my apologies for my overzealous response. However, you really ought to go back through the thread of comments and see the context in which you wrote yours. Other commenters were calling for criminal investigations of so called "climate deniers", Nuremburg-type trials, and the like. I got the impression that you were in agreement with them, in which case "totalitarianism" (or "fascism" if you prefer) is the right word.--eric]

I praksis kaller her Steig både Hansen og Mann for totalitære fascister... og det på RC!
It is easier to lie to someone than to convince them, that they have been lied to

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Sv: "Crimes against humanity"
« Svar #2 på: August 25, 2012, 13:10:26 pm »
Og hvorfor dette ligger på ClimateGate-tråden får du svaret på her, fra samme RC-tråd

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Tenney Naumer says:   
22 Aug 2012 at 8:06 PM

I am not sure, Eric, but I think you are confused.

If someone authorizes expenditures for services of persons who illegally hack into servers and steal emails (while also hacking into Real Climate, lest we forget) with the intent to take text out of context in order to try to destroy scientists’ reputations and careers and mislead the public on the extreme danger we face, and if they pay someone to break into Andrew Weaver’s office and steal his computers while at the same time sending people to impersonate technicians and try to break into the data center at his university, do you not understand that these are people who have no regard for the law or for their fellow human beings?

Let them keep their miserable assets, but let them be shunned by civil society, let them be booed if they show their despicable faces in public, and for all I care let them be pelted with rotten eggs and tomatoes everywhere they go.

Hvis problemet er at sitatene er "tatt ut av kontekst", så er jo løsningen å presentere hele konteksten, er det ikke? Men sannheten er nok heller at det er konteksten de ikke vil dele med oss.

Det handler om Climategate, ja. Og denne "Tenney" ser ikke for seg noe egentlig rettsoppgjør, men en folkelig mobb som kaster egg og tomater.

Vakkert.
It is easier to lie to someone than to convince them, that they have been lied to

Utlogget Bebben

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Sv: "Crimes against humanity"
« Svar #3 på: August 25, 2012, 13:11:16 pm »
Folk som Steig og Schmidt er nok litt smartere enn Mann og hans heiagjeng - smarte nok til å forstå at de gjør sin egen "Sak" en bjørnetjeneste med slike uttalelser. Hovedargumentet for eksistensen av RealClimate var jo at de skulle fremstå som seriøse forskere for å motvirke skeptikerne og ikke minst kritikerne - les McIntyre og McKitrick m. fl. Nå ser de at Manns oppvarmede planet er i ferd med å score selvmål a la 10:10 No pressure.

Det er også eksempler fra Climategate på at flere reagerer på Mann som "hothead".
Baby, it’s getting hot outside! Send for Greenpeace!

Utlogget Amatør1

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« Svar #4 på: August 25, 2012, 13:27:57 pm »
Det handler om Climategate, ja. Og denne "Tenney" ser ikke for seg noe egentlig rettsoppgjør, men en folkelig mobb som kaster egg og tomater.

Hvis du blar enda lengre ned i den kommentartråden, finner du følgene svar fra Mann til Susan Anderson angående modereringen av kommentarer

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Susan Anderson says:   
24 Aug 2012 at 11:06 AM

[blabla ... hvor ble det av Tenney sin kommentar]

[Response: Yes, I've restored *Tenney's* comment. And, no, I didn't place it in the borehole in the first place. I don't know how it got there. --Mike]

Er det en indre uenighet i "The Team" vi er vitne til? Steig viser tendenser til å være åpen motstander av totalitære tendenser og fjerner kommentarer som støtter slikt. Mann er like åpen tilhenger av Nurenberg-kommentarene og assosiasjonene til Nazi-oppgjøret etter WWII. Han er i den grad tilhenger av dette, at det ser ut til at han åpent reverserer Steigs moderering ved å hente tilbake innlegg fra RCs "borehole" til kommentarfeltet til egen artikkel.

Har ulvene begynt å bite hverandre i halsen?
It is easier to lie to someone than to convince them, that they have been lied to